In Ep. 88 of the “Charisms for Catholics” podcast, host Jill Simons welcomes Sean Breeden to delve into the extraordinary life of Saint Joan of Arc, focusing on her unwavering faith and leadership. Breeden, a marketing manager at Ave Maria Radio, is finishing his book titled “Lead Like Joan,” which underscores the principles of missionary discipleship inspired by Joan of Arc’s life. Throughout the episode, we explore Joan’s impact, her leadership style, her identity, and how modern-day missionaries can draw lessons from her example.
Joan of Arc’s Foundation: Total Surrender to God
Sean Breeden passionately shares how Saint Joan of Arc embodies total surrender to God, a principle foundational to missionary discipleship. Despite being a young girl from a humble background, Joan displayed unyielding faith and willingness to fulfill God’s will, guided by the divine messages she received, particularly from Saint Michael the Archangel.
Breeden reveals that his deep study of Joan began through an inspiration from Saint Michael. This led him to appreciate Joan’s ability to stay true to Jesus and the Church amid political turmoil, illustrating the importance of perseverance in faith.
Principles of Leadership and Missionary Discipleship
In his forthcoming book “Lead Like Joan,” Breeden illustrates how Joan’s leadership and ability to inspire men serve as a timeless model. Joan’s mission to lift the siege at Orleans and support the coronation of Charles the 7th exemplifies her tenacity and effective leadership.
Breeden highlights the importance of setting standards in relationships, using Joan’s interactions as a captain in the French military. He underscores Joan’s ability to motivate and set clear expectations, showcasing the need for both clear communication and intuition in leadership roles.
Discernment Journey and Charisms
Jill Simons introduces the framework of a spiritual journey through four stages: identity, charism, discernment, and overflow. Sean resonates with this progression, particularly emphasizing ‘identity’ as a crucial aspect of Joan of Arc’s story. Joan’s unwavering commitment to her mission, despite immense obstacles, reinforces the significance of understanding and embracing one’s identity in Christ.
Listeners interested in starting their discernment journey can find resources at Many Parts Ministries (manypartsministries.com), which offers a free PDF guide to all 24 charisms and a charism assessment tool.
Modern Application of Saintly Virtues
Jill and Sean discuss the contemporary relevance of saints and their stories, highlighting Joan of Arc as a beacon of inspiration for living a faith-filled life, regardless of societal challenges. Sean shares that through Joan’s example, individuals are encouraged to live lives that make faith attractive, inspiring others uniquely by asking the Holy Spirit for guidance.
Saint Joan of Arc’s story is a testament to the power of divine guidance, courage, and unwavering faith. As Breeden elaborates, her life is a profound lesson in the spiritual journey, urging us to persevere and trust in our God-given mission despite adversity. Through her exemplary life, Joan of Arc continues to inspire modern-day missionaries to embrace total surrender to God and lead with divine purpose.
For more updates on Sean Breeden’s book “Lead Like Joan” and to explore Joan of Arc’s inspiring journey further, visit www.leadlikejoan.com.
Jill Simons:
Hello, and welcome to Charisms for Catholics. My name is Jill Simons, and I’m the executive director at Many Parts Ministries, where we equip the body of Christ by helping people learn about and discern their charisms, which is really another word for spiritual gifts. When you discern your charisms, you’re able to see how the holy spirit is already active in your life and where he is inviting you to further build the church. Let’s dive in. Hello, and welcome to today’s episode of the Charisms for Catholics podcast. I am really excited to bring you this podcast because this is just it it is tempting to say it was total serendipity, but, of course, it was totally the holy spirit that connected me with our guest today. We were both at the Encounter conference this summer, and we just started talking about the areas that we have really been inspired in spiritual growth, and our guest today is Sean Breeden. He has been spending so much time with the life of Saint Joan of Arc, and as he was sharing with me about the stages, he is really drawn out of her personal spiritual development in studying her biographies.
Jill Simons:
I saw so many similarities to what we talk about so frequently in the stages of identity, so I knew we had to have Sean on the podcast. So I’m so excited. We made it happen today, And Sean’s full time job is as a marketing manager at Ave Maria Radio. That’s how we met at the Encounter conference on the vendor kind of lane of things and got to have some lovely time to talk. So I’m so excited to share his wisdom with you today. So, Sean, thank you so much for being here with me.
Sean Breeden:
Thank you for having me, Jill.
Jill Simons:
So I’d love if you start by telling us how you got into the life of Saint Joan of Arc, what was really the draw there, and why this is kind of a passion project for you?
Sean Breeden:
Yes. So I would say the the short version, and then I’ll give you the medium version as well, but the short version is that Saint Michael the Archangel was my gateway drug into Saint Joan of Arc. So I was I was asked I’m on a a a speaker list with Renewal Ministries, and I was asked by someone that found me there, with the, diocese of Lansing Council of Catholic Women. They were having a day retreat, which actually was just just in May, just a couple months ago. And, she said, I I’d love for you to speak at our day retreat. And I said, very interesting because I I don’t qualify to attend this this gathering. And yet I was very excited about it, just the opportunity. And she said that when she looked at the speaker list that I was highlighted to her because there’s, frankly, there’s many more people that might have made more sense to speak at this event, but I took that as as a sign from the Lord.
Sean Breeden:
And I had already at my own parish at Christ the King in Ann Arbor, Michigan, I had started this, this local ministry called warriors of Saint Michael, and and just pressing into, you know, the spiritual battle and brotherhood and all of this. So Saint Michael the archangel was very much on my mind, and I in my reading about Saint Michael, I I saw that it kept listing, like, Anne Saint Michael also appeared to Joan of Arc one time. So she said I could pick my topic, and I said, let’s do Joan of Arc. And she said, great. And then, of course, I had to find out who Joan of Arc was because that’s all I knew is that she was sort of unjustly killed at a young age, and Saint Michael appeared to her. That was pretty much it that I knew. So, basically, I started diving into her life to prepare specifically for this talk, but then what I found is that, the Lord started stirring in my heart things that were so much deeper than, you know, a 30 or 45 minute talk one time. It became very clear that a lot of things were just lining up, for me to to dive into Joan of Arc with some consistency and also to to draw out from her life principles that all of us should be putting into practice.
Sean Breeden:
Those basic foundational principles, that sometimes with someone like Joan of Arc who did these these amazing things in her life, it’s very easy to discount that and say, well, that was I mean, she’s a one off case. Clearly, she had this amazing mission, and I’m just living my life, raising a few kids. You know? Like, who am I? And yet at the foundation of her spiritual life were these principles that, frankly, like, we need to be living by. Like, these are not optional principles that that that she was putting into play. Yes. They looked different based on what God called her to, but we have to get back to those foundational principles and that really more than anything is total surrender to whatever God wants in our life, and she’s just the perfect model for that.
Jill Simons:
Yeah. I love that. And, of course, we look at All Saints, but especially Saint Joan of Arc, and we see kind of, like, the end stage of things. Right? That’s the part of the story, The her actual martyrdom and the really incredible things that happened, obviously, is not where the story begins. And so part of what we ended up talking about that was so interesting is, like, this progression that she went through in her life that maps so perfectly to what we see in the identity quotient on the charism assessment where we really have identified 3 stages, and we call them identity, charism, discernment, and overflow, but you discovered these same stages in St. Joan of Arc’s life. So I’d love if you shared about them and what language you use to kinda draw these out.
Sean Breeden:
Yeah. Absolutely. Across the church, there’s there’s all sorts of language that people use to try to basically, the question is, how much do you sort of split up the spiritual life, you know, for whatever pedagogical purpose? Like, what are we trying to teach? Right? So so in one sense, you could say, well, there’s initial conversion, and then there’s diving into community, and they’re studying your faith, and then learning about your charisms and going on mission. Like like, you could split it up in any number of ways. But one thing that I was so struck by with Joan of Arc is that she never gave up. Like, everything was stacked against her. So, really, over and over again, that sense of perseverance kept coming up. And so the the sort of model that I was going by, sort of, splitting up her life was one identity being rooted, for her as as a daughter of god and then mission that her identity then overflowed into her mission.
Sean Breeden:
And then this final stage of perseverance, that that being rooted in your identity as a son or daughter of God allows you to persevere to the end with supernatural fortitude and courage, despite the obstacles in your way. And I think that that third stage really, frankly, does not get the the press that it deserves, because so many people have an amazing experience. They they come to know. They don’t have to earn the love of God. They come to know their identity as a as a son or daughter of God. They’re excited about mission. And then lo and behold, some curve balls come your way. And then then what do I do? Like, okay.
Sean Breeden:
Then I’m having trouble believing that I’m a son or daughter of God. I’m having trouble believing that God sent me on this mission because everything seems to be falling apart, and there’s all these obstacles. So my heart really is is for individuals as well as especially ministries, Christian ministries, to be able to step back and and think about what does it mean to persevere in the Christian life. What does it look like? And the church, frankly, has the whole road map there so much from all the saints, the the writings of the saints, of the church, the catechism. Like, everything’s there, And yet something happens when you see Saint Joan of Arc living it out, where it becomes so tangible that she was a real young woman in a real time in history with real obstacles, and this is how she persevered. And I just find those examples and anecdotes of her life to be perhaps the best way to try to understand persevering in faith. And I’m just I’m you can’t tell I’m utterly obsessed with with Joan of Arc. So I will I will try to to calm myself down and continue the conversation.
Jill Simons:
No. And I think that it’s it is the, like, the unique iterations of these things that are so informative, I think, and that’s part of it it’s kind of a purpose of the saints that I don’t think we really think about that frequently. When I was encountering the saints as a young person and reading their stories and things like that, it felt like they were there to, like, ask them to pray for us, which is obviously a huge part of what we do with the saints is ask for their intercession. But then also, there was kind of this, like, oh, and they’re also here to kinda make me feel bad about myself was my very imperfect understanding as a young person. When I think in reality, it’s so much closer to what you’re talking about where it’s let’s look at how they did this. And if it’s something we wanna do, if we are aspiring to be a saint, then there’s a huge opportunity to reverse engineer here and to understand how her path led her to sainthood and what was key in her getting there. And, obviously, the saints are so diverse and so unique, which speaks to the diversity of the body of Christ. And so if, you know, obviously, it’s Saint Joan of Arc that’s really resonates with you, and it could be somebody else for some of one of our listeners, but that diving into the story and and really experiencing the specificity of what their spiritual journey looked like is so helpful.
Jill Simons:
I think about, you know, Saint Therese of Lisieux, one of my favorites, and the, you know, frustration that
Sean Breeden:
even get me started. I’m leaving. We’re talking about Joan of Arc. I could talk about Joan of Arc. K. Let’s stay on task.
Jill Simons:
Well, I’ll then very briefly, I’ll simply mention that, you know, there’s so many times in her story that she shares about in the story of her soul where things didn’t go the way that she hoped and anticipated and kind of dreamed of. And I think that that’s a universal experience among the saints. But when we experience it as Christians so often, we’re like, wait. What? Like, where was this wasn’t supposed to happen. It’s like, what what made you think this wasn’t supposed to happen? This is very much in the story that’s being played out over and over again.
Sean Breeden:
Mhmm. No. Absolutely. I I agree with you that, as someone that, you know, since my I went to always went to to mass growing up, but, it really became my faith became my own in high school with a Steubenville South Youth Conference in Louisiana. I’m originally from Texas. And, but but throughout that time, I suppose I’ve been I’ve heard so many talks. Right? Like, from high school to going to Franciscan University to being a seminarian for a couple years to being involved with ministry as an adult. It’s like I know the information.
Sean Breeden:
Like, knowing the stuff is not the problem, but but to be really inspired and stirred by the holy spirit through the lives of saints really has been something that has reawakened my faith in a way that that mere, you know, study of, you know, the principles themselves independent of an of an of this example, was not able to do. So I really see I see the saints almost like a lens through which you can see the spiritual life. It’s like putting on glasses and and for me, it’s like, I love Jesus. I do love Jesus. He is our model. Right? He is everything. And yet, I’ve heard his story so much. Sometimes I can block it out.
Sean Breeden:
It’s like, okay. Well well, he’s Jesus, you know, he was God, like, I don’t know. And and or you get to the crucifixion and you’re like, oh, I know he’s brutally murdered and tortured, but, like, I know what’s gonna happen. Like, there’s some some you become kind of numb to it. But for me, when I was reading about Joan of Arc and all these parallels, in her life with the life of Christ that I wasn’t necessarily expecting. But seeing this young, innocent teenage girl being, you know, betrayed and and killed. And and in the midst of all these trials, like, everything against her from from being the wrong gender at the time, right, the to the wrong sex. She’s uneducated.
Sean Breeden:
She is kind of an upper class peasant, if you can call that. Her father was kind of a essentially like a mayor of a town. He owned some land and some cattle, but he was not nobility. Right? She had nothing going for her where anyone in their right mind would say, I think you should, you know, in inspire France to, to beat England in the 100 years war, lead them in battle, and eventually have, you know, King Charles the 7th crowned, I think that’s that makes sense for you. You know, young young illiterate peasant teenage girl. Yeah. I think that makes sense. But God, in his wisdom, who uses the weak to lead the strong, looks at Joan’s heart and her willingness to do whatever he asks of her, and he says, you’re perfect for this.
Sean Breeden:
You are absolutely you are the one I’ve been looking for for this. Yeah. In turn of it is frankly simply because, you know, most people don’t listen to his voice and try to do his will. So as much as Joan of Arc is this amazingly unique character, part of it may be that no one else was listening. He’s like, alright. Joan, let’s do this thing. You know? Yeah. You’re actually listening.
Sean Breeden:
You actually have faith in me. We’re gonna we’re gonna make this happen.
Jill Simons:
Yeah. I think that there’s this perception that whatever the next stage is spiritually, that’s gonna be easier than the current one. And I think that saints are so helpful in navigating that as well because so often we see that it’s not like their life got easy or, you know, started making sense or something like that. We see, like, the biggest asks coming the farthest in, and this this renewed need or this constant need is maybe the better word to take risks. And that’s we see that if she’s not open to really stressing and pushing the amount that she’s willing to trust the father as we see in the life of Christ and all the other saints, we’re not getting all the way to the end of the story. And I think that that’s one of those places where, again, the Saints’ huge function is for that hope in what is possible for us.
Sean Breeden:
Yeah. I I would I would totally agree with that. I’m I am, I was captivated by your phrase that the biggest, you know, acts or, you know, asks that God has for us are are the furthest in. And to me, that is that is everything. And and and my my question is that I always ask myself in ministry is is essentially, you know, how you know, like, there’s been many, for instance, many men’s ministries around this area where I live. And I started another men’s ministry, and I’m like, well, why did all these men’s ministries not seem to to take off? And, like, what does it mean to to be called to a mission for the long term? What does it look like? How can we, obviously, some sometimes God has a plan for a short season for a certain ministry. And yet I know God wants to change hearts in the long term and that he’s giving everyone in the church a mission. So clearly, like, he wants us to have fruit that will last as as John 15 says, when we abide in him.
Sean Breeden:
But the key, and I know this is so central to everything you do, the key always comes back to identity. And this is where Joan of Arc really shines. Okay? So, you know, she was a normal peasant girl. Her her main sort of skill was in sewing. She she she does have this natural temperament that’s, like, you know, a little bit spicy at times. Like, they’re they ask her, like, so, like, you know, what were you doing in Domremy when you were growing up? And she said, I’m very good at sewing, and and she so her trial was in the city of Rouen. And she said, you can put me up against against all the people in Ruan. Like, they she basically says, like, I’m awesome at sewing.
Sean Breeden:
Just yeah. So even from a young age, for example, I love this story where, she actually she would always go to evening prayer every day, and there was a bell that would ring, and the person that was in charge of ringing the bell is sort of, like, person that was was kind of the caretaker of the local church would ring the bell. And he was inconsistent with ringing the bell. And Joan, who who frankly reminds me so much of young Therese, she she goes up to him, and and he there’s literally a quote from him. That’s the amazing thing about Joan of Arc is it’s all so well documented. But this caretaker of the church, they interviewed him, and he said he forgot to ring the bell that day. And she came up to him, and and she said that he had not done well. Okay? And she said that if you promise to ring the bell on time, I’m gonna get some wool from my father’s flocks.
Sean Breeden:
Okay? I’m, like just basically, like, bribing him. Like, ring the bell. I gotta get you know, she’s not afraid even as a young girl to to sort of engage with with this man that was much older than her and sort of set him right, this kind of holy boldness. You know? Yeah. But what I really wanna highlight is when she was 13, Saint Michael the archangel appeared to her. And they said, I get chills every time I think about it, but they said, what did he call you? And she said, every day until this day, he calls me Joan the maid, daughter of God. Joan the maid, daughter of God. And I think that is the key to everything she was able to accomplish.
Sean Breeden:
I mean, from from the moment, like, without being rooted in who you are in Christ, you don’t have a chance. You would burn out because, really, what we’re talking about is, you know, use the analogy of what are you anchoring yourself to. Are you anchoring yourself to Jesus and what he thinks about you, to the kingdom of God, or are you anchoring yourself to, you know, your own perceptions, your own shortcomings, the circumstances, what everybody else is saying about how you can’t fulfill this mission? You anchor yourself to the the circumstances and the obstacles and the curve balls. Like, what are you anchoring yourself to? So she goes to to sort of move the story forward. At first, Saint Michael says, you know, go to church often and pray. And she’s like, that sounds great. Let’s, like, let’s do that. And then when she’s 16, he he flips the script a little bit.
Sean Breeden:
He’s like, yeah. You know, keep praying. Go to mass, and go to Vocolour, talk to sir Robert de Beaujeucoeur, who’s the king’s representative in the region, tell him that only you can save France, lift the siege at Orleans, and have, Charles crowned as Charles the 7th king of France. And in my mind, you know, in my mind, Joan’s response is like, I’m sorry. Could you repeat that?
Jill Simons:
What now? Just one more
Sean Breeden:
I I was with you with the masked part, but then you started seeing some other things. So can we talk about that? Her first response was, her her first response, she said, in her trial, it’s only recorded, she says, but I don’t know how to ride a horse. So so and I looked up sort of the the, original, French that she used was ecuitare, like equestrian. Mhmm. So it basically it indicates very likely she had ridden a horse and just being on a farm like that, but it is a totally different skill to ride a war horse. To ride a horse in the context of battle is a totally different skill that she did not possess. She goes to Vocalore, with, her uncle who who lives close to there, goes up to this person that is in charge of the region for the king. It’s like, hey.
Sean Breeden:
Only I can, make this happen. So can I see the king now? And his his first response I mean, it’s, frankly, it’s a little bit sexist, but he says, he tells her uncle, go ahead and have her beaten and take her back to her father. Okay. Great. Like, most of us who are, you know, sometimes struggling to anchor ourselves in our identity, if someone said, like, you need to be beaten and go home, we’d probably like, that would be the end of it. Yeah. Like, our pride has been wounded. Mhmm.
Sean Breeden:
Maybe God told me to do this, but, okay, like, this this hurts. Right? This this wasn’t I didn’t sign up for this kind of thing. But she she ends up she does go home. In the meantime, Domremy is is attacked by these pro English forces within France called the Burgundians. She goes back to Vocolore again, asks him again. He says no. The 3rd time, he says yes. I you can you can meet the king.
Sean Breeden:
Wow. There’s this supernatural favor that she was able to get with her, again, perseverance. Every stage of the story, comes down to perseverance and believing that what God said is true.
Jill Simons:
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Gosh. I love that so much. This and, I mean, her story in so many of them, there’s, like, almost an endless amount of time we could spend with them. But if it’s okay with you, I’d like to throw you a tiny curve ball because you are a man talking about these issues, seeing these issues, and this is the feedback we get from so many people is these women that see the centrality of this issue in the lives of their husbands, sons, brothers, priests, whatever, that desire so deeply to help the men in their life or or maybe there might be men listening who desire to encounter this and feel like it’s something that is so much easier for women to even approach. I would be so interested in your thoughts on what you would share with someone as a man that’s deeply interacted with this, how it is that that men can best receive this.
Sean Breeden:
Mhmm. Yeah. So I what I instantly thought of was if we if we fast forward to, you know, Joan Joan meets the king, skipping all the details, she goes to Orleans. She is a captain in in the French military equal to the other captains. And so she’s with these men that are, like, 20, 30 year veterans of the military. And don’t worry. I’m getting to the point. So but one of the first things she does and keep in mind, she hasn’t really proven herself to these men yet.
Sean Breeden:
Like, in in their mind, okay, like, the king wants us to sort of babysit this teenage girl, and maybe people are inspired. They think she was sent by god, some sort of figurehead. Like, okay. We’ll we’ll sort of play this game, but she doesn’t have any real authority. We’ll we’ll take care of it from here kind of she comes, and she very much acts in the authority that she was given by the king as one of the captains. And she says, by the way, one of the first things we’re going to do is, all the men need to stop swearing and blaspheming. And these, these sort of women of ill repute that are following the camp, they’re not gonna be here anymore. We’re not gonna allow that.
Sean Breeden:
We’re not gonna allow this, you know, promiscuity to happen. One one of the one of these, prostitutes, she actually went up to and and she basically told the guy who wasn’t married, he’s like, you have a choice. You can either, marry her or she has to leave. Like like, she so even in the midst of that, she’s like there’s this both, like, very, like, brash, but also merciful kind of tone that she strikes. But and she says this, all the men need to go to confession and to mass before we fight. And you can imagine what what the reaction of these other captains are. Like Yeah. Like, you realize what kind of men are signing up to be soldiers? Like, do do you even know what you’re asking? And yet, there was something about Joan where when she made their that request of these men, they did it.
Sean Breeden:
They they would not blaspheme or swear the these these women that were following the camp were turned away. They went to confession. They went to mass. And and what I always think of is is this, is how on earth did Joan get them to do this? And undergirding all of it is, one, she had the courage to actually set a bar Yeah. For them. And secondly, undergirding everything she did was she inspired them. Right? So you use so men I’m just gonna say it. Okay? Men love women.
Sean Breeden:
If women set a bar and stick to it, yes, some men might say, well, it’s not worth it. And then then you found out, like, okay. Like, well, I’ve and now I see what your character is or or whatever, especially in, like, a, say, an early dating relationship. If you set a bar and they’re like, well, I’m not willing to be a person of prayer. I’m not willing to be a person of purity. You just save yourself a lot of heartache by just setting a bar. Okay? But the other part of it and because women do have this amazing gift of intuition, like, you can instantly look at your husband and see everything that he needs to work on. Okay? Like like, there’s there’s no mystery to any woman of, like, how their husband could improve Fuck.
Sean Breeden:
In Yeah. In the family, in prayer, in whatever, picking up their laundry and, you know, communication, you name it. But as much as you need you really do need to set concrete, you know, this is what I expect. And frankly, that’s what a lot of men are lacking. They’re like, well, everything was fine, and then you just, like, yelled at me because I guess you have, like, this list of 90 expectations of me that I didn’t realize, but you didn’t communicate them to me. Mhmm. Like like, men need that sort of cut and dry clarity of this is what I expect. And, obviously, women need to be realistic and say, okay.
Sean Breeden:
Maybe I have in my mind that my husband should be kind of like a supermodel version of John Paul the second, but maybe, like, maybe, like, I maybe I need to pick a few things to focus on. Okay? And but but within that, if it’s all just just sort of, you know, ropely listing the expectations without this, like, relationship that’s present and and mercy that is needed on both sides for our shortcomings, there is something to be said about asking the Lord, what does it look like to inspire the men in my life? Like, what does it look like to and, again, it’s it’s hard because it can be a little abstract. But if we live our lives in such a way where the faith becomes attractive, they can see that you’re a person of love and mercy, or you just list off everything from 1st Corinthians 13. You know, the hardest thing in any marriage is, you know, they read it on your wedding day as love keeps no record of wrongs. You’re like, I don’t know about that. Like, I got quite a list, you know, of wrongs. But to really enter into discernment with the lord of how can I inspire? And maybe that’s maybe that’s suggesting, you know, going on a retreat with other men where they can have this encounter that’s that’s really geared for men. You know? Like like, it could be any number of things.
Sean Breeden:
Mhmm. But to to engage with the Lord and say there’s something about Joan of Arc that her just her presence, the way the way she was so close to the Lord, so confident in the Lord, and willing to risk for the Lord, that inspired the men to rally behind her. And I think, that’s something that sometimes we we miss. Yeah. Like, we can we can become that sort of, you know, Pharisee that stands in judgment over someone rather than a a cheerleader who’s who sees the best in someone. And that’s what Joan was great at. She looked at all these men with the heart of the father and said, the world might look at you and see a bunch of, like, good for nothing immoral scoundrels. But when I look at you, I see a group of men who are willing to change the way they live and who are willing to stand up and fight for France.
Sean Breeden:
Like, she saw the goodness in them. She saw the gold in them and was able to pull it out. And I’m, frankly, I I’m very inspired. Even all these centuries later, she’s in the 1400. Like, I feel that call from her to, like, shape up. You know? It’s like
Jill Simons:
Yeah.
Sean Breeden:
Like, yeah, just just become the man that you’re called to be.
Jill Simons:
Well, and I love how much that’s an expression specifically of the obvious leadership charism that was on her life, and that vision that she has specifically is probably in a lot of ways a function of that. And so, you know, I know that there’s people with all different charisms, all different ages, all different situations listening to this episode. And so if you’re just like, oh my gosh. I could not be further from, like, that being my approach to things or where I feel drawn to, invest myself or how I feel called to invest people. I think that, like you said, it’s that key of asking the Holy Spirit what you’re inspiring people looks like because it’s going to be very likely through the specific charisms that you have, and maybe that’s leadership. I resonate so much with that with Joan. My favorite thing is to be on stage in front of priests and at men’s conferences and do a version of that because that’s where I feel called to inspire like that, but that is gonna be different for different people. And so I think it’s extremely wise to have that be something that you take to prayer on a regular basis.
Jill Simons:
What is this supposed to look like for me regardless of your gender, regardless of your charisms? Because no matter who you are, there is someone that’s looking at you, looking to you for what the standard is, whether you are, you know, a father setting the standard for your children or you are a, you know, child setting the standard amongst your group of peers, everybody, you know, has someone looking at them.
Sean Breeden:
Absolutely. Yeah. And that’s and that’s why, like you said, it’s totally fine to gravitate towards one saint or another. Mhmm. I mean, Joan has this amazing ability to appeal to people, frankly, on every side of the sort of spiritual and even political spectrum. Like, everyone has tried to co opt her for their own purposes because she is amazing. Like, people will gravitate and say, oh, Joan, we love her because she’s fighting for the poor and downtrodden or she you know, like so so even like Marxist or like like, she’s ours. And then, like, every group is like, no.
Sean Breeden:
We love her because of this, that, and the other thing. And we would be just so remiss if we did not, in my mind, reclaim her as ours. Like, no. She is ours. Like, despite all the sort of confrontations that she had with the sort of hierarchical church during during her life and her trial, she never, for a second, denied Jesus or the church Yeah. Which is astounding because there she had, in many ways, every reason to do so. Mhmm. And yet she knew like, once in the trial, they asked her, you know, this person with no religious education whatsoever, they said, well, you say you’re hearing, like, basically from God through Saint Michael, but what about, you know, what about the church? Like, we make pronouncements as well.
Sean Breeden:
So how can you say that you’re hearing directly from God? And and she basically says, all I know of Jesus and the church is that they are 1 and the same. Like, she has this deep knowledge of ecclesiology and Christology, the mystical body of Christ. Jesus is the head, and we are the members. Like, there is no way she learned that sitting in a classroom. She all that she learned was at basically, on her mother’s knee. Wow. How on earth could she formulate that idea, and yet she really saw she could see through the sort of political machinations of this church tribunal that was judging her and could see, no. There’s there’s Jesus and his his perfectly pure bride, the church, you know, the church triumphant in heaven, and then us on earth, the, you know, the church militant trying to trying to find our way and some of us go astray and we struggle.
Sean Breeden:
And in that case, you know, much of the the bishops and and and people involved were had their own political ends connected to England as to why it is that they they condemned her. But she was able to see through that and how much more in our day with just all of the factiousness that we see within the church just to say, okay. Jesus, he’s got this under control. I am gonna do what I can do in my corner of the world. I’m not gonna give up hope. I’m gonna, you know, I’m gonna keep keep my banner flying in in Joan of Arc terms and, and just press forward. Just press forward.
Jill Simons:
I think that that is such a beautiful place to conclude this conversation. Sean, thank you so much for your time. Is there anything you want to share with our listeners before we say goodbye?
Sean Breeden:
Gosh. There’s there’s so much more about Joan, specifically that I’d love to touch on, but I am currently in the process of, finishing writing a book called Lead Like Joan, principles of missionary discipleship based on the life of Saint Joan of Arc. It’s currently, being reviewed by by a publisher. But you can find out more information or sign up for email updates at lead like Joan dotcom. And, hopefully, we’ll we’ll cross paths it some some event in the future.
Jill Simons:
Thank you so much, Sean.
Sean Breeden:
Thank you.
Jill Simons:
Thanks so much for joining us on today’s episode of Charisms for Catholics. If you would like to learn more about your charisms or begin your own discernment journey, head to our website at manypartsministries.com where you can download our free pdf guide to all 24 charisms and also begin your own journey by taking our charism assessment.
